I think most people recognize that anyone being saved is a miracle. A joyous miracle of God.

Here’s a question… Can someone be demonically oppressed or possessed today? If this is possible, is there anything that a Christian can do about it? Many say that no person can work miracles today from God. Some call them Spiritual Gifts, some call them the Apostolic Gifts, but Paul called them gifts of the Spirit, but he told the Corinthian Church that “the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all” and that they should “earnestly desire the best gifts.”

What are these controversial gifts?

And before we get too deep, let’s deal with two things. First, chapter 13:1-2, Paul states,

Paul can speak tongues of men and of angels. Tongues of men is clear… It’s the languages of man and we see examples of that. But what is meant by tongues of angels? Fun to ponder, but I believe when studied at length, each of us can find fruit. Either way, that’s for you decide.

The second part is this,

God has appointed these in the church:

Apostles – some say these no longer exist

Prophets – some also that these no longer exist

Teachers – but… do these still exist?

Workers of miracles – some say these no longer exist

Varieties of tongues – some say these also no longer exist

Paul ends with, “but earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.” He wrote this sometime between ~52-56AD. This is written to the Corinthians only. What is the reason for that? Some say, why didn’t he write this to other churches. Didn’t he? 60AD he wrote to the Ephesians something quite profound. Let’s explore that.

Do we just do this so we can share the gospel? That’s certainly compelling. But why did he say this??? Let’s go to the verses prior…

What are we wrestling against? Or is this only for the Ephesians? Are we not wrestling against these very same things? Principalities? Wiles of the Devil? Powers? Rulers of darkness of this age? Maybe all of this just means dealing with kings, emperors, corrupt bureaucrats, but what do we do with Spiritual hosts of wickedness? Or from the Greek, “Spiritual of Evil” denoting the unseen wicked spirits.

Are we going to suggest that all of this has faded away?

Let’s be gut level honest here for a moment. I recognize that no miracles or gifts of God are done by humans of their own power. All “good” miracles and gifts are God (Holy Spirit) working through those who these gifts have been imparted upon. Make no mistake – NOT MAN’S power but GOD ALONE.

If this is true, then all of the Old Testament and even New Testament express accounts of people doing witchcraft, casting down snakes and other dark arts. These powers that are manifested, NOT by man, but by communing with demonic spirits. No? Yes? Maybe?

Now, if we are to suggest that all of the miracles that happened in the Bible were all fake, then perhaps the conversation stops here. However, if we can agree that all of creation was created by God, then miracles are kids play from there on.

So, what are we arguing about? Gifts, miracles, prophesy, works of a supernatural basis. I’d like to know why people see these as being controversial. Genuinely. I understand when someone sees something like what Benny Hin does with his “spiritual nerf bat” and when he swings it, half of his congregation falls down as they are “slain in the spirit,” then that is just a bunch of baloney. Is it staged? Is it demonic? For this discussion, I don’t care what it is. It’s nonsense and it is not of God. Period!

This is to address Kim from Facebook in her response to ceasing gifts. Not going to give a full name, because I don’t believe that’s appropriate here. She has shown me decency and respect and I am not looking to have anything but a polite, yet “spirited” conversation. Perhaps that’s over-stating it. But after all, we are both believers and love Jesus immensely and she’s a very respectable lady.

There were some main points she made, but before I address any of the Biblical texts she cited and opinions she brought forth, I have to say this to her. “You are created in the image and likeness of God and you are valuable and important to the creator of all things, Jesus Christ.  Blessings to you.”

I am not responding to change anyone’s mind, but simply to ask that all involved to consider what the Bible says, provide evidence of what early church history is, directly from the sources  (with reference material as well) and to seek the truth above all things, including denominational church doctrines and little “c” church “tradition”.

• Kim: Miraculous signs and wonders and gifts were to affirm prophets as coming from God, to affirm that Jesus was God in the flesh and that the Apostles were from Jesus
  
• Response: There are a lot of citations you made – I included the text just to show that all that had to do with Jesus’ works – not the Apostles.

I would suggest that signs were also to point people to God so that they might establish faith and relationship with the true and risen King, Jesus the Christ.

• Kim:
• Apostles had to meet three qualifications (you say NO ONE meets those qualifications today)
• Eye witness to the risen Christ
• Personally appointed by Christ
• Had to be able to work real miracles
• Response: I will grant you all of these points. 

• Kim: Real Apostle’s teachings were the foundation of the NT church with Eph 2, 3, 4 citations.
• Response: I might suggest that it was Jesus’ teachings and that it was Jesus and Holy Spirit leading on their lives that was the foundation of the NT church.  Some may call this splitting hairs, but I don’t follow Paul’s teachings or Peter’s or John’s.  They were led by Holy Spirit to write.  I will follow Holy Spirit as I do still today to have discernment.

• Kim: *IF* today’s gifts were still NT gifts, they would operate the same as the Apostles did. Today’s so-called “miraculous gifts” have NO resemblance to the Apostle’s gifts, they DO NOT point people to Jesus but to themselves, & are a sham. ~Tongues, in particular, were known, real languages, not made up gibberish. Luke 2:7-8, Acts 11:15, 19:6; Acts 2:6-11; 1 Cor. 14:13,27-28. ~ Prophesy was direct, infallible & became Scripture; 
• Response: I’m just asking the question, but what if a healing today were to point someone to Jesus?  You are saying that so-called “miraculous gifts” have NO resemblance to the Apostle’s gifts.  Ok.  99% of what I’ve seen is sham and is set up to make money off of people.  I would suggest however that scripture is not 100% clear with regards to unknown tongues, because there was in fact a need for interpreters.  That is a curious scripture though… Why wouldn’t it just be a native speaker?  I’ve always wondered about that. What if you heard someone speak in a spiritual language. Perhaps one of the angels as Paul mentioned. Is that possible? Every possible?

• Kim: ~ the gift of healing in the NT resulted in complete, permanent, immediate, undeniable healing of every kind of sickness & could be SEEN which made them undeniable. Not just lower back pain, headaches, sham leg lengthenings from mass hypnosis, peer pressure or psychosomatic. Today’s false prophets would be dead if they were in OT times.
• My Response: Gifts of healing resulted in complete, permanent, immediate, undeniable of every kind… Yeah.. Well.. Ok.. Ish. Do you recall when the disciples tried to cast out a demon but couldn’t. That was a gift, right? Discernment of spirits?  Mark 9, Jesus told us why they failed…  But hadn’t they been granted the gifts…  An interesting study if you get a chance.  The concept of leg lengthenings, that seems weird.  Not something I really buy.  You did mention today’s false prophets would be dead if they were in OT times.  Yeah well, that’s VERY TRUTH. However, even true prophets were killed in the OT times.  Whether false or true prophets, they were murdered – if truth be told.  The Jews went to stone Jesus multiple times for works AND of course claiming to be God. 😉

• Kim: The Canon of Scripture is closed & the sufficiency of Scripture speaks for itself. 2 Tim. 3:16. No new revelation is needed. ALL new “revelation” is false. Scripture is sufficient.
• My Response: Canon is closed.  AMEN sister!  One of the gifts Paul told the Gentiles was to seek the prophetic gift.  Why did he do that?  Obviously not so that they could write more books.  But what does Paul say here in I Cor 12:11 – “But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.”  It’s no longer Jesus doing the selections and doling out the gifts as was required for the apostleship, it’s the Spirit of God.  Not to create more apostles, “But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:” in verse 7.  That’s curious, isn’t it?

• Kim: all that NOT to say that God is not still doing miracles…He is…BUT as is His good will & timing. If God weren’t still doing miracles, there wouldn’t be anyone who is born again. Every regenerated Christian is a walking miracle.
• My Response: This is simply preaching the good news my magnificent sister in Christ.  God’s grace is magnificent in the effort for people to be born again.  Follower’s of Jesus are totally a walking miracle.

• Kim: Church history, itself, testifies of fading NT gifts…testimony of silence. Paul’s writing in 1 Cor was the last mention of tongues; he wrote 9 other books & never mentioned them again.
• My Response: You may want to look to all the books that Paul wrote.  Galatians was Paul’s first writing.  No mention of gifts.  I/2 Thessalonians also before Corinthians.  All the rest of Paul’s writings excluding the Timothy manuscripts were prior to Acts.  This is not sufficient to say Paul never mentioned them again.  And oddly, Ephesians 6 as I mentioned – specifically talking about prayer in the spirit, that was 4-8 years after Corinthians. (If you argue that about Ephesians, then perhaps you should do a study around “words of wisdom” or “words of knowledge” in relation to Biblical precepts. If you really aren’t a fan of my assessment, just look at what Acts 19 from about 61AD about the time when Paul wrote Ephesus, where Paul had laid hands on 12 men IN EPHESUS and they had Holy Spirit come upon them and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
  Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”  When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Now the men were about twelve in all.
  Why would there be a need for non-Apostles to prophesy? To your point however, In Corinthians, he is addressing the Gentile congregation in the 50’s AD, telling them to seek the gifts.  Why would he do this? He was not saying that gifts are just for us Apostles. He was telling Corinth to seek the gifts.
  —–Now about Early Church Fathers testified to. They were NOT AT ALL silent… I have read many articles about people saying that the early church was silent on the gifts…

• None of my responses address whether or not gifts ceased when the Apostles died.  How do we answer that?  Here’s some thoughts, because you also mentioned that “Church History, itself, testifies of fading NT gifts… testimony of silence…”
• I already addressed Paul’s writings which is not a good measure for being the last mention of tongues.  But let’s just deal directly with Church History.  Over the last 7 years or so, I have been reading the early church history and more specifically, what all of the early church fathers from the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and many from the 4th century had to say on MANY topics.  The main reason I did that study was to see how many times they quote the New Testament texts DIRECTLY.  It’s fantastic actually.  I’m actually nearing the time to publish my first work about Clement of Rome and the manuscript attributed to him as “I Clement” where he cites countless verses from the New Testament from the 1st century.  But in these reading of early church fathers, I have also come across some other really fascinating facts, like the Trinity was a development from early on in the church, not from the 4th century as many secular and unlearned Christians promote.  Also, it is clear not only by the early church fathers, but also secular writers that the early Christians sang worship songs confirming that he was God.  But all of that is to say, I also ran into countless citations that… well, just read for yourself.

JUSTIN MARTYR (100-165AD), (Dialog with Trypha, 82). “For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to the present time. And hence you ought to understand that formerly among your nation have been transferred to us.”

IRENAEUS (120-200AD), (Against Heresies, 2:32:4, 5).

4. If, however, they maintain that the Lord, too, performed such works simply in appearance, we shall refer them to the prophetical writings, and prove from these both that all things were thus predicted regarding Him, and did take place undoubtedly, and that He is the only Son of God. Wherefore, also, those who are in truth His disciples, receiving grace from Him, do in His name perform, so as to promote the welfare of other men, according to the gift which each one has received from Him. For some do certainly and truly drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe, and join themselves to the Church. Others have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions, and utter prophetic expressions. Others still, heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and they are made whole…

 5. Nor does she perform anything by means of angelic invocations, or by incantations, or by any other wicked curious art; but, directing her prayers to the Lord, who made all things, in a pure, sincere, and straightforward spirit, and calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, she has been accustomed to work miracles for the advantage of mankind, and not to lead them into error…

“…members of the church who have prophetic gifts, and…speak with all kinds of tongues, and bring men’s secret thoughts to light for their own good, and expound the mysteries of God” (Against Heresies, 5:6, 1).

Now God shall be glorified in His handiwork, fitting it so as to be conformable to, and modelled after, His own Son. For by the hands of the Father, that is, by the Son and the Holy Spirit, man, and not a part of man, was made in the likeness of God. Now the soul and the spirit are certainly a part of the man, but certainly not the man; for the perfect man consists in the commingling and the union of the soul receiving the spirit of the Father, and the admixture of that fleshly nature which was moulded after the image of God. For this reason does the apostle declare, We speak wisdom among them that are perfect, terming those persons perfect who have received the Spirit of God, and who through the Spirit of God do speak in all languages, as he used Himself also to speak. In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostle terms spiritual, they being spiritual because they partake of the Spirit, and not because their flesh has been stripped off and taken away, and because they have become purely spiritual. 

~290’s-early 300’s – 5:7:1 – Eusebius states that Irenaeus… “in agreement with the accounts already given by us, records in the work which comprises five books, and to which he gave the title Refutation and Overthrow of the Knowledge Falsely So-called. In the second book of the same treatise he shows that manifestations of divine and miraculous power continued to his time in some of the churches.”

EUSEBIUS came to the conclusion that these gifts were still active at least throughout the life of Irenaeus (Ecclesiastical History, 5:7, 6). 

APOLLINARIUS is quoted by Eusebius as having said, “the prophetic gifts must continue in the church until the final coming, as the apostle insists” (Ecclesiastical History, 5:16, 7). – not sure this is real… seems to tie in with Montanus – not clear

(Mid to late 300’s) Confirms there are false prophets

EPIPHANIUS, (Panarion, Volume II) – Many points about those who practice the gifts with ecstasy are false and are to be seen as false prophets/prophetesses. (https://ia600501.us.archive.org/18/items/EpiphaniusPanarionBksIIIII1/Epiphanius%20-%20_Panarion_%20-%20Bks%20II%20%26%20III%20-%201.pdf)

Origen – ~248AD Contra Celsum, Book I – Chapter 2 (https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04161.htm)  – We have to say, moreover, that the Gospel has a demonstration of its own, more divine than any established by Grecian dialectics. And this diviner method is called by the apostle the manifestation of the Spirit and of power: of the Spirit, on account of the prophecies, which are sufficient to produce faith in any one who reads them, especially in those things which relate to Christ; and of power, because of the signs and wonders which we must believe to have been performed, both on many other grounds, and on this, that traces of them are still preserved among those who regulate their lives by the precepts of the Gospel.

I’m confident that these early church fathers told the truth of what they saw being practiced.  And Biblical and Christian historians lay incredible amount of credibility to many/most of these early church fathers. But, let’s say you don’t buy this.  That’s fine.  It’s not the easiest thing to just READ tons of writings by a bunch of old dead people from nearly 2000 years ago. But if you don’t buy it, evidence of such statements like, “Church history, itself, testifies of fading NT gifts…testimony of silence” is needed for justification. Otherwise, it’s what some website says about such and such and that’s not useful for a conversation like this.

From here – it’s just a whole bunch of thoughts that I’ve had over the recent years…

Jesus told the Apostles to do certain things and He made promises to the Apostles, right?  What promises that he made to them, do we not relish in? It was better for them that He left so that they could do greater works than He did. Did he also tell us to do things and make promises to you and me? Jesus told the apostles to (And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. – Mark 16:15 Is this also for us?

Here is the entire section:

It’s the 11 that he rebukes.  Jesus then tells them that “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”  The very next line says “And these signs will follow those who have believed…”  Are these signs for those who have believed and were baptized and were saved AND ARE NOW IN JESUS?  Or, no?

If no, then does that mean Christians of today are NOT to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature?  Or does it just mean that today’s believers are to go out into the world and not have access to the gifts, cast out demons, etc?  Does this mean that all the demonic oppressed people today are without hope?  That’s a tough one to swallow, but, what do you think? I did already touch on that before.

What promises did Jesus make to the Apostles, but not us?  Why would Jesus give the Apostles and most definitely others, including those that Apostles laid their hands on, signs and gifts – but then we don’t receive those gifts.  The early church fathers confirmed the gifts were still around after the Apostles. 

Who stands to gain from gifts being ceased?  Not us.  Lord help us, not us.  The devil would stand to gain from the gifts being ceased.  When I pray Ephesians 6:17-20 am I just doing this in vain? 

I believe that God will give me the words to speak when I need them to impart a word for an unbeliever – or for that matter a believer who is stuck in some sin.  If God is giving me words, then it’s either a word of knowledge or a word of wisdom. Nothing of me, but all of him. Jesus was talking to his disciples when he said, “First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.” in Matthew 7.  Isn’t this for us?  If I have been given a victory of some type of healing (let’s say from smoking for 30 years, healed instantaneously) wouldn’t that be a great testimony of how the plank was taken out of my eye, so that I could see to take the speck out of my brother’s eye and help them get freedom from nicotine too?  I believe that text was for us.

Paul told Timothy “Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.” – II Timothy 4:2 – this is also for us, correct?

I want to know what you think is going on here.

“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. And where I go you know, and the way you know.” Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”  Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.  “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”  Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”  Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?  Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.  Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.  And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.  If you ask anything in My name, I will do it. – John 14

Jesus said he is going to prepare a place for you.  Who is he talking to?  Thomas at the very least because he responds at that moment.  In this instance however, can we assume that Jesus is going to prepare a house for you and me if we are believers and in relationship with Jesus – in addition to Thomas?  Or is this just for Thomas?

Jesus says “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”  Because we did not see Jesus at that time and because Jesus was speaking to a group of people, which did not include us, does that mean we are excluded from knowing Jesus and His Father?

Then Jesus says, “He who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.”  

Is this promise only for those that are hearing Jesus at that moment?  If you think that any of the promises that Jesus made are for us also, then what do we do with “He who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also”?  Is that not you and me?  Maybe? Maybe not?

Some finishing thoughts that I have, when studying about this…

What does this text say? “Now it happened in Iconium that they went together to the synagogue of the Jews, and so spoke that a great multitude both of the Jews and of the Greeks believed.  But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brethren.  Therefore they stayed there a long time, speaking boldly in the Lord, who was bearing witness to the word of His grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands.”

Lots of people believed, both Jew and Greek.  AMEN.  Got to love that.  Was this only the Apostles that were granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands?  Maybe that’s right.

Hebrews 2:1-4 – Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? – Hebrews – Author is likely unknown around 60’s AD

This man is saying that he heard Jesus and that God was doing signs and wonders, miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit.

You revealed the details of what was considered to be an authentic Apostle.  No argument there.  Who argues against what scripture says?  Right?  I believe the Apostles were those selected by Jesus originally in the flesh for the 12.. Then the returned reincarnate Jesus (after he had ascended to the Father) for Saul/Paul.  And then Matthias was selected as one to replace the role of Judas – many people chose him as being that role.  Was that an apostle role?  I’ve been curious as to what the answer is on that.

What about Jesus???

Jesus healed the leper, raised the dead, made the lame walk, turned water into wine, and on an on.

Who else did miracles in the New Testament?

Stephen – And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and signs among the people. (Acts 6:8)

Are there others? The answer is a resounding yes… Would you like more??? Charles.Laird@gmail.com – I’m happy to respond.

Something I read from another author:

——-

As noted earlier, the gospels and the book of Acts record many miracles. But by AD 64-68 they were no longer prevalent. The writer of Hebrews acknowledged this when he wrote:

How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? (Heb. 2:3-4).

These verses tell us a great deal about the nature of first-century miracles and their purpose. They were not quiet miracles, they were spectacular. Using the past tense, the writer of Hebrews described them by the use of three significant terms:

• He called them “signs” (semeion)—visible pointers to God’s supernatural activity.
• He called them “wonders” (teras)—works intended to create a sense of awe and
  amazement.
• He called them “miracles” (dunamis)—mighty acts that reveal God’s power.

Do miracles occur today? Yes. God answers prayer, but these answers are not so open, obvious, and spectacular that unbelievers admit their occurrence. We see very few “signs” and “wonders” today. When God answers our petitions for healing or deliverance, He usually works in such a way that the skeptic can easily deny that a miracle happened. – https://ourdailybread.org/resources/the-miracles-of-god-in-acts/[/su_quote]

—–

Skeptics denied miracles even when they just happened. Just think of the people who made the golden calf – MINUTES after they experienced the awe of GOD. Fascinating.